Drumming as expression of personality

[no_bells]

I honestly don't know why everyone is lumping Virgil, Lang, Mangini, Minneman into one category. Yes they all do clinics but that's about it. All those guys are completely different players. Almost everyone seems to be rewarding certain kinds of expressions and negating others for being true to themselves. Everyone experiences life and music in different ways, everyone expresses themselves in different ways etc. I understand if one does'nt like it, but to say these cats don't possess any musicianship is completely false. Everyone is making it sound like these guys are playing solos over all the recordings they have done which if one has really listened to these guys they would know that to be false. These guys have great musicianship but it is expressed in totally different ways. I mean , we're talking about expressing abstract things such as life, musical experiences on what is probably the most abstract instrument of them all: the drumset.

I've always thought of Lang Donati Minemmann and Mangini as a seperate breed from Vinnie, Gadd etc - I've pretty much thought of them as amazing but completely, er, superfluous isn't the right word but certainly I can live without their drumming despite their exraoiridnary ability. There is a nagging feeling that ANYONE could lock themselves in a room with a kit for 20 years and come out doing 7000 strokes a minute between any two limbs in 19/8 (I know this isn't actually true by the way, but you know what I mean) but that you could put 5 billion people in front of 5 billion kits for as long as they wanted and they'd never play "Seven Days" etc. as well as Vinnie.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I have to disagree with this statement because NOT ANYONE can practice with the level of focus and concentration that Virgil, Mangini etc practiced/practices with. I would imagine that it takes just as much creativity and imagination to play "Seven Days" as it is to create the rhythms and music of Virgil, Mangini etc . The rhythms and music that Virgil plays and writes don't just fall out of the sky. Have you heard Virgil's "Quantum Factor"? You just don't hear that kind of music every day. Also, I would imagine that it took probably the same amount of WORK to get where Vinnie and Gadd are.

[Andy Edwards]

It is strange when you get into this discussion that the new super drummers catch so much flak!

I think this perfectionism trend is affecting all drummers and the gratuitous displays of technique seen today are just one aspect of it.
How many times have you heard people talk about 'pocket' as though it is an absolute, certain reality!
It has also affected drum sounds. There seems to be now be an accepted drum sound. This has also affected the way music programs have been designed (with there 'drum' settings for compressors and gates. Their quantise with 'human' feel and plug-ins like drum replacer)
None of these programs have been designed with the performer in mind, it has simply handed aesthetic authority to the producer.

I really believe it is in the hands of us musicians to have an affect on these things. This has always been the story of music.

[got_a_matchgrip]

Agreed, Andy.

no bells - I also usually tend to agree overall w your "assessment of 'philosophy'" here.

Except that, to set the record straight for myself [i know i wasn't singled out [img]smile.gif[/img] ], but I would NEVER "negate" those ferocious players...i love these guys for their hard work in unique interpretation...& I NEVER said these cats "don't possess any musicianship." No way. I simply stated their meter is one of machine-like rigidity [thanks to the modern-day click/DM]; that i don't feel that they have the feel or grease "if you will" of some of my other fave players.
Also, they tend to be all over rock, metal, & fusion recordings, & you don't hear them on a lot of "groove-y" [or swinging] type material. And their musical choices of statements within a song tend to reflect that. Licksy, OTT technical statements made in fuzoid tunes. Incredible? Yes. "Musical?" that's debatable; maybe not always, depending on the listener [the subjective/objective thing]...

[That is just my own personal interpretation, subjective, objective, or otherwise.] [img]wink.gif[/img]

Those guys DO however knock me off the crapper every time in relation to sheer technical accomplishment of wizardry [a new standard being set]. No one ever said these guys couldn't "whip some sear'yo'@$$ cream with an outboard motor." They are MONSTROUS Olympians. Heavy-Math musos.

In this respect, I try to pull those elements from them to help my own independence in playing, relating to a groove or piece of music.

"Eat the delicious & ripend watermelon; spit out your seeds."

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ December 05, 2005 04:36 PM: Message edited by: got_a_match_grip? ]</font>

[no_bells]

GAMG, yeah I was'nt very articulate with my post and did'nt mean to sound confrontational or anything. It was late and I was winding down from a gig so I got a little lazy there. [img]confused.gif[/img]
I know you appreciate those guys and of course I know that Digital Man does as well. [img]wink.gif[/img]

True some of these guys might not show up on many pop/r&b/funk oriented recordings but I just think that it's an intentional decision on their part.

[got_a_matchgrip]

No worries, mate, no off taken. [img]smile.gif[/img] [img]cool.gif[/img]

I will add that as a drummer, & coming from a "strictly accomplished drumming" POV, I was scared outta my skivvies when I heard Virg's OTV/SYI. But it is indeed some very OTT drumming for shore.

But some folks might remark, "overplayed & not-attentive to music," but i guess that's whether or not you are considering the fact that it was written w this in mind, around displaying his advanced tech prowess. Some cats don't like that kind of stuff, & i can understand that AWA the fact that i understand it's ruthless "drumming" period, per se.

Again, it will get us into the continuous deabte over the modern technical marvels writing stuff to showcase this ["technical wankery" ;-p] rather than thinking musically. [Altho i wouldn't nec call it "wankery," as it's not out-of-time or sloppy, but rather "outbursts"...maybe, "hot-dogging" [over-playing]... ;-p

Personally, I understand & dig both, DEPENDING on the situation &/or my mood...as long as one understands this POV, it's easier to accept. [img]wink.gif[/img] But after a while, I do see how the tech'd out stuff becomes a machine-gun or power-drill drone after a while.

I guess maybe it's just music for the "youthful," angry, aggressive, adrenalined, marginalized, testosterone-laden males at heart, ain't it...{"Hard rock," i think, is what they call it!] [img]tongue.gif[/img]